Tom: We are at the Ontario Place in Washington, DC. Today is October 13, 1963, about 1:00 in the morning. Here with Tom Hoskins and Nick Perls, we are talking with Mississippi John Hurt.
Tom: How old were you when you learned how to play?
John: Nine years old.
Tom: So you were playing guitar and learning songs like Good Morning Miss Carey, Satisfied, Hot Joint, when did you first start to play around to parties, dances, stuff like that?
John: Well, I was about 12-13 years old when I started playin for parties dances like that.
Tom: How did you get your start?
John: Well, everyone asks me says, "Say how would you like to make some music for me tonite, I'm having a party." I says alright, alright, alright. Had to play for them.
Tom: At age 13 you were out of school by this time. Went as far as the fifth grade at...What was the name of the school?
John: St. James in Avalon, Mississippi.
Tom: When you started playing for these parties were you playing by yourself?
John: I was playin by myself.Tom: Singing songs like what?
John: Oh I sing songs like Hot Joint, Good Mornin Miss Carey, well, you know I can't remember right now. There was more.
Tom: Now you were working by this time, is that right?
John: Right.
Tom: Now what kind of work were you doing?
John: Workin over the farm there for my mother.
Tom: You were just helping her with the farm that belonged to your father?
John: That's right.
Tom: How long did she have the farm, John, after he died? How old were you when she lost it?
John: Fifteen
Tom: Fifteen. And then you moved up to the Avalon district and she began to do washing and cooking and things like for people.
John: Right.
Tom: At this point what did you do as far as work? Did you hire out to someone?
John: I did.
Tom: Who did you hire out to?
John: Felix Evans.
Tom: He was a farmer?
John: He was a farmer, at a place adjoining our place.
Tom: So you worked for him?
John: Worked for him.
Tom: Let's see now, then from the age fifteen... well fill me in on pretty much what you been doin, John, from the age fifteen up until the time you recorded for Okeh in 1928. Can you tell me what you were doin where you travelled, this and that?
John: Well I worked on the railroad.
Tom: How old were you when you worked on the railroad?
John: Oh, about twenty-two. I worked on the Illinois Central.
Tom: What did you do on the Illinois Central.
John: Oh, I went down and lined the track.
Tom: Lined the track, what do you mean?
John: Well, the railroad bowed see, we would run railroad jack, the track was kind of hoppin like wine you know. Even get out of sight, he'd holler out, "Hey, joint ahead." Somethin like that.
Tom: When you join together.
John: Join together, "Joint ahead," sometimes he say, "Two joints ahead" like that and he'd run this jack on there and you'd take it off and set it over there and begin the jack up you know and next you got it jacked up and you got those line box and you go over there and see what you call "Callin track," well, it's really you sing a little song and all bar rapped together and you push the track over and you get it in line and "UP!"
Tom: You jack it up under the tie or on the actual track?
John: You jack it up with that jack, tie and all. The whole thing. Then, after we got it jacked up, it's swayin like we could rap it over with those line bars, you see. Just as I said, someone would be singing, you know. They would probably be singing a little song like this cause they called it "Callin Track." They says who's goin to call this track, maybe this one says "I'll Call It." Alright, get to sing a little song. See that keeps time, you know, all rap together, you get it in line and "UP!" That thing settle down and you take your jack out from under there, let it down then, what you call, tappin those ties.
Tom: Get them at the right height.
John: That's right.
Tom: When they be swinging these tie bars?
John: Lining bars.
Tom: Well when they were swinging the lining bars, did they have a man called a Caller that would sing a verse by himself and then everybody would join in on the chorus, is that the way it worked or did he sing by himself.
John: He'd sing by himself. Everybody would just follow him with that song.
Tom: Was anybody else singing or would he do it all by himself.
John: He's doing it all by himself.
Tom: There wasn't lots of people, not a whole bunch of people.
John: Not a whole bunch, just one man singing keepin time.
Tom: You took turns, who did the Callin.
John: That's right.
Tom: Do you remember any of the songs that you did sing while you were lining the bars, lining the tracks, some of the calls that the Caller would sing? What were some of the names?
John: Well I wouldn't know the names, just the verses that I was singing a while ago? "Ida when you marry, I want you to marry me, Like a flower held, baby you never see," you know, like that.
Tom: Do you remember any other songs that you sang while workin on the railroad?
John: Well, I don't remember. Of course they sung some more but I just can't remember right now.
Tom: How about Spike Driver Blues. That's a railroad song. Did you learn that while workin on the railroad?
John: I did.
Tom: You did. Do you remember who you learned it from or how you learned it?
John: Well, I learned it from a railroad hand called Walter Jackson.
Tom: And he worked for the Illinois Central.
John: That's right.
Tom: He was a caller, he was the one who taught you this Spike Driver Blues?
John: He was the man, that's right.
Tom: Did he play guitar? Did you learn the guitar part from him?
John: He didn't play the guitar, I just learned that song from calling track.
Tom: What other songs did you learn while working the track?
John: Casey Jones.
Tom: Casey Jones, do you remember how you came to first hear Casey Jones?
John: Well, a cousin of mine sang it.
Tom: Did he work on the railroad?
John: He did, that's right he worked for the railroad. Of course, some of them verses I didn't get them from him, I got em all together by hearin people talk about what happened.
Tom: You made up your own verses?
John: That's right, myself, that's right.
Tom: How long did you work on the railroad, John?
John: About five months.
Tom: Five months. Why did you leave?
John: Well, I had to leave and help my mother some more on the farm. I couldn't well work the railroad and help too, so I just quit the railroad.
Tom: Whereabouts were you layin this track? Was this in Mississippi?
John: Mississippi.
Tom: Was it near Avalon?
John: That's right, from Crisbee.
Tom: From where?
John: Crisbee, that is far as our territory, you know, that is the line I'm sayin, it's like uh...
Tom: The difference between being in your own district and being out of your own district?
John: That's right, see I say you take the police in this town, they all have the same beat, ain't that right? Well that's the way that was. Other section in front of us was takin over from Crisbee towards Jackson while we worked from Crisbee to Granada.
Tom: Out towards Granada.
John: That's right, someone take over from there you see, another section.
Tom: What did the people do, they come through the area and just announce that they were looking for people to work on the railroad? Was that how you got with them?
John: Well, the way that I got with them, there was a friend boy of mine, Matthew Miller, he was a real handy, so he could get, right away workin on the railroad he could at another place and of course I wanted a little money, so he told me he says, "Well you come on and see if you canŐt get on the railroad." So I tried for the job for the section boss. So they hired me.
Tom: How much did they pay you, John?
John: They would pay-off every two weeks. I'd get fifty dollars.
Tom: Did you get fifty dollars clear money?
John: Clear money, fifty dollars clear money.
Tom: So you worked out about five months and then you decided you had to help your mother.
John: That's right.
Tom: That was at age twenty-two, so you went back and what did you do?
John: Well, we raised up cotton and corn.
Tom: Your mother still had the farm.
John: Still had the farm.
Tom: I have written down here that she lost the farm when you were about fifteen.
John: Well, you know she had it, but it was under that mortgage, it wasn't clear. See what I mean?
Tom: When did they finally foreclose on the mortgage? When did they finally make you all move away, take the farm away?
John: Well, I was twenty-seven.
Tom: At age twenty-two you left the Illinois Central and you went back and went to farmin.
John: That's right.
Tom: Now, did you do anything between the time that you went back to the farm and the time that y'all had to move away?
John: Well, made cross ties.
Tom: Made cross ties, out of what?
John: Out of woods, ground trees, oak trees, pine, sweet gum.
Tom: All those different kinds of trees were used for cross ties?
John: Cypress trees.
Tom: How did you do that?
John: Well, made with a crosscut saw, axe and what you call a sledge hammer, wedge and make wood wedges what you call gluts and a broad axe, you ever seen a broad axe?
Tom: Big long one.
John: Big long, wide one.
Tom: Does it got two blades or one?
John: One big long wide blade.
Tom: Who did you sell the ties to.
John: To the railroad company. He was a tie man, we called him. These ties would have to be inspected you see. He'd inspect these ties and put them on the railroad, stack em up on the side of the railroad. Well, when you got enough ties made that you want to call this inspector, well he would come out, I'd say twice a month and he'd inspect them.
Tom: There were lots of people doing it?
John: There were lots of people doing it. He'd inspect these ties, he was real picky on those ties. They had to be flat and smooth, you know, eight feet long and six inches wide.
Tom: How thick did it have to be?
John: Six inches.
Tom: Straight, that's eight feet and how far this way?
John: Six, Six by eight and eight feet long.
Tom: How much did you get for the ties those days?
John: Those days, well, some of those days you didn't get but what they call ten cents a stick. That was ten cents a tie. Well, they raised, when I got into makin them, they was payin a dollar, a dollar and a quarter a stick.
Tom: You did alright on those I guess.
John: Well, you know, I did pretty good, now you know. But you couldn't make 'em too fast.
Tom: How long did it take you to make a stick?
John: Well, maybe it take me about three quarters an hour, sometimes an hours to make a stick.
Tom: How many sticks could you get out of a tree.
John: You know, sometimes you get, or you might get a good long slim tree you might get four, five out of that. Sometimes you get a tree you only get one out of it and sometimes you get a tree that you get ten or twelve out of it. It was all accordin to the size of it.
Tom: You do that all by yourself or did you have somebody doin it with you.
John: Well, sometimes somebody with me and sometimes by myself.
Tom: How did you get the tree, did you cut the tree before you bring it back?
John: You saw it, you measure it eight feet and you saw it off with your saw.
Tom: Then you bring the pieces back to the farm. Did you make the ties there where you cut the tree down?
John: Sure, sure. Alright you make the ties right there. Then, you have to haul them to the railroad, you see. Get someone with a truck or get some mules and a wagon. I towed many a cross ties I made across my shoulder.
Tom: Must have been heavy.
John: Oh man, they're heavy, that's right.
Tom: When you went back to work with your mother on the farm, were all your brothers and sisters there then or did some of them move away.
John: They moved away, some of them married and moved away.